Some changes to shows

<sup>I didn't say they did get +10 stats for 10 hours of lessons lol, but I think the system is pretty fair for what you get in riding schools right now anyway. 

I disagree, shows and schools shouldn't give the same stats or there'd be no incentive to show when you can do the same thing with riding schools. We need to encourage more entries and higher payouts, we do not need more stats going onto horses as it would start to create a severe imbalance in the game.</sup> 

mmm well, makes sense :)

Yea, i try to show all my horses and end up spending twice as much as i win. It would be nice if we could get some extra things from shows as almost everyone uses riding schools now. 

I show as I prefer it to riding schools, but the lack of show entries is actually pretty upsetting. I have lots of horses and it's not sustainable as there aren't big payouts. 

I'm keeping showing to keep shows alive, as when there's a lot of entries I've had some horses gain at least 10 stats in less than 10 shows.

And then I have other horses that gain no stats in 10 shows, but it's not like I'm even getting a lot of winnings from the shows either to balance out the entry costs. If I was at least breaking even with shows, it would be a slightly different story. 

I don't mind unlocking more of my horses to show them as show fillers, but I agree something needs to change so there's better rewards for showing, over using a riding school. If RS were more likely to gain EXP and shows more likely to gain stats and more EVD I could see it working a bit better, as people have a reason to use a RS and a reason to show and both have their pros and cons

<sup>Earnings are really misleading at the moment, most of the time it looks like you're not making a lot of profit but it's very dependent on the time of day you show and progress as well as when those shows actually run. I showed late last night so I'm showing about 150k spent/gained but if I had progressed later on today/closer to the time I showed it would be showing me 150k spent and 250k gained. 

But I agree, the lack of entries is something needed to be addressed but I'm still not convinced stats are the way to go forward with it at all, as that's an issue that would be improved as more horses are entered past 5 horse restriction.</sup>

Part of the reason I imagine for the low show entries is that some people will intentionally not show horses they know aren't going to win. I don't bother entering my International level horses in shows anymore. Is there already a scarcity of International horses? Yes. Am I willing to lose money and not gain any stats so that someone else can? Nope. For my lower level horses, I glance through the show entries and judge whether my horses would have any possibility of winning before I enter them in anything. If showing were free, it wouldn't matter, but for me, the risks of showing are too high when riding school is a guaranteed bet (guaranteed not to lose money, very rarely have horses that don't get any stats). 

Even with my selective showing method, the most stats I've ever had a horse gain in a day is 12 in the 6 months that I've been playing. I don't know how y'all getting 30 stats are doing that.

Had a horse today that placed 2nd out of 15 entries. Zero stat gain. Cool. 

<sup>Some of your horses have higher than showing average ns stats and are also being fed pepperments Westrn, which will be a contributing factor to not winning shows. People don't show horses because hay cubes essentially ruined show horses for that by bringing up ns stats, so people turned to riding. If everyone was showing you'd be seeing more reliable results in showing as you do with the riding school. 

You kinda have to lose some to win some unfortunately, the longer you're showing for the better the results you will over a horse's lifetime.</sup> 

My feed page shows 27 placings in a row (several different horses) with no stats gaining. This is really frustrating.

I don´t really care about getting back the money I spend entering my horses in shows. What really annoyes me is wasting it entering the horses for 0 stats gaining even if they are winning consistenly, just because there aren´t enough horses in the show. School lessons may give less stats, but they give them. I hardly ever get 0 stats gaining from school lessons.

If more horses are needed in shows then a possibility for gaining stats even when less than 5 horses are in should be added. I will quit my horses from shows if this continue like this. I will hate it, as I prefer showing rather than schooling, but I also want my horses to have some benefits. Not only money.

Are they in shows with more than 5 entrants? They won't have a chance of stats otherwise. Stats are not guaranteed through showing, it's never been guaranteed in this version but they are more rewarding than schooling is over a lifetime. 

No they aren´t because there are no horses entering those shows. And they will be less horses entering if we continue like that. It´s very, very frustrating trying to improve your show horses showing them and find out nobody else is showing their horses. That´s why I firmly think ALL horses placing should have the possibility of gaining stats. I´m not saying they should be guaranteed, though. A possibility. Maybe only 0-1 stats gaining if less than 5 horses were entered instead of 0-3. But something... And I hardly doubt a Na or I endurance horse will get more stats from only showing than from only schooling. There are very few horses entering those leves in endurance. I hardly ever get any stat from those level shows when I place because most of the times less than 5 horses are entered. I started combining shool and shows and I´m getting now more stats - thanks to school lessons. I refuse to quit showing because I love showing. But I also want some stats gaining. 

Well it could change now that they are looking at implementing higher show earnings, a major complaint was people breaking even with showing. You could also increase your chances by entering 5 horses per show, or three of your own with two more rubbish/filler horses if nobody else seems to be showing. 

I still disagree with adding more stat chance, nationals are a really populated level compared to international, and it should be hard to get to international, as it is is fine for postcode horses. You also need to consider the breed you're showing in your case, endurance for example tends to be mustangs (there's 4k of them) and TWHs(2k), there's not a lot of TWH breeders left and mustangs tend to be hugely cubed for generations, so a lot of them aren't suited for showing. My mustangs are national level for example, but I've not been showing them for lack of breeding opportunity (I'm one short of a pair and not keen on raising a foundation). 

Just though I would add what I do to be pretty successful in showing (my formula).

First, I only choose and breed horses for show with low ns stats.

Before I put horses into shows, every day I...
1. Feed, vet and care for them to make sure health and things are 100% 
2. Train them and make sure to statboost any that need it
3. repair and upgrade their tack if needed

then After all that I put them into shows.

Things I have noticed.
1. a lv 5 trained horse (mine usually reach this around age 12) do better in shows then lv1... so training is important.
2. Horses closer to progressing in grade do better in shows and win more then others.

It is very rare that I don't make a profit and have at least 10 horses a day improve in grades (but I also am showing 300+ horses a day) and I do often compete with myself, It used to bother me but my lower horses boost my higher ones and as they move up it seems to even out in the end. 

I only use the riding schools for my old {21 year} horses and the few in my "lawn ornaments " {dont show well or nns over 60}.

Not saying anyone has to do what I do or play how I play, but this is how I do my showing that does pretty good for me.... though I do agree more people in the show ring would be FANTASTIC!
 

Last edited on 2020-04-09 at 08:14:22 by ❦BlueEyedLuv❦

Looking over this thread, I think it clearly showcases the two diverging perceptions of what showing is actually supposed to do/be. And I think this is one of the major problems. There seem to be two thoughts:

1) Showing is meant to supplement reliable stat gain (i.e giving treats) and riding schools are supposed to do the same. Hence shows aren't supposed to give out stats every time you place 3rd or higher, and they certainly aren't meant to give out stats simply for entering shows. In this train of thought, while the showing system might still not be up to par because of the lack of shows, the amount of stats gained isn't the problem. Incentivizing people to not only make shows but enter them is the problem so that players can at least reach 5 entries to have a chance to gain stats.

2) The alternate and what seems to be the prevailing thought (also what I assumed when I joined) is that showing is meant to be the main way to gain stats. Treats are supposed to be that bonus thing you do every day to get stats. And riding schools are only meant to supplement if your horse simply isn't winning so that you have another main way to get stats and money. In this situation, the problem is that horses, even when winning may gain no stats at all, and it penalizes players for showing if there are less than 5 other people who show with them. If showing, as perceived is meant to be the main way to gain stats, gaining them this way is terrible.

Hence before we fix shows, I think the community (or maybe just the people at the top) need to decide what showings role are supposed to be. Are shows supposed to be the main way you gain stats? Or are they simply meant to be an additional, riskier, but could have great rewards way to gain stats, other than the reliable way. If the role has already been decided, it isn't being told to the community in an understandable way, and hence causing all of us to perceive what shows are supposed to be doing differently 

I was writing a loong message and it got deleted. Puff!

Summary: I´ve noticed that with endurance horses and in aprticular those high NSS mustangs. I even have some of them, because some time ago I focused in high stats mustangs. But as I like showing, breeding for low NSS fits better my goals. Now I feel penalized because of that: many endurance horses don´t show because they are "cubed" and don´t do well in shows, so most of the times I don´t have the 5 entries so my horses, even if they place, don´t get any stats. I usually play just after the cron runs because of where I live and what the time zone I have. So when I enter my horses in shows, I have to create them first as I usually don´t find enough shows for my horses. This means I am the first entering the shows. If I am lucky, there will be 5 or more entries, maybe my horses will place and maybe they will get few stats. I assume they won´t always place, and I assume they won´t get stats every time they place, that´s fine. But if I am not lucky, there will be less than 5 entries and my horses won´t get anything.

Breeding for low NSS won´t make any sense if the horses don´t get a benefit from showing. What should I do? Should I forget about showing and just give my horses cubes and peppermints and breed again for high stats mustangs because all the other endurance horses don´t show? Or should I continue breeding for show horses but just have them sitting in a school because it has no sense to show them? Every horse can go to the school and it makes no difference if they are well bred or not. I don´t need to spend a lot of money in stud fees to improve my herd just to send my horses to the riding school.

Claire thank you for your insights on this matter! As someone who's been here long enough to remember a time before stats were even a thing, it's interesting to hear that what I think of as common fact not the first impression some people get. 

As a background for anyone interested the progression of the game went something like: Showing for points > Introduction of Stats and Grades with Feed to gain Stats, treats as a bonus chance and Showing for points and EXP > Stats from Treats guaranteed (removed Feed stats) Showing for EXP Points and bonus stats > Introduction of Training Arenas which give Stat boosts every 10 trainings > Introduction of riding school for horses struggling in shows* 

*some horses were struggling due to being from cross discipline lines or horses that formerly specialized in "Conformation" as a discipline, which meant all stats were counted equally as this was before conformation became its own thing.

I can't say for certain what Abbey's intentions were for showing/schooling. But treats and training boosts were designed and intended to be actions to reliably raise stats! So not really a bonus. Technically those two items combined will be the main way any horse reliably gains stats. 


If you don't mind my rambling math:
Without any outside influence from either Riding School OR Showing a horse will gain at least 656 stats from treats and training boosts if given every day. With a foundation ending their life at approximately 756 stats. Obviously this could be higher or lower depending on if your horse gets more +2 boosts from treats instead of +1 from treats and if the horse moves to a new grade division earlier than the model suggests. A horse that's trained daily will get 12 training boosts in a lifetime and the stat amount depends on the grade grouping the horse is in at the time of the boost.

In general after a couple personal tests I've had my foundations end life between 900 and 1100 stats which means approximately 200-400 stats gained from showing as I exclusively show. Horses have 126 days that they are adults capable of being shown or put into riding schools. With an average of 2 stats per day from riding schools(I've had some retired kids come back with 1-5, but usually 2-3) that's 252 stats, which is right about even with the foundations who show, sometimes less and sometimes more depending on your luck in both. 

However this does change a little with a horse lower in nss with showing, they are more likely to place better and thus have better chances at stat gain. Additionally Horses in higher grades (Regional up to about National 2) tend to have more competition and gain stats at a slightly higher rate as well just because the potential pool is larger. They also get better stat boosts the higher they go so the next generations will continue to build on their parents successes.

I honestly now don't remember the point to all this and wish I was better equipped to meticulously record stats and progress to do some experiments! I hope this was interesting for at least a few of you though!

Last edited on 2020-04-09 at 21:26:48 by Sabriel