[ADDED] *modify breeding formula

i'm assuming my second suggestion of modifying the breeding formula ASAP was deleted because it was too similar to this one? I'll re-articulate my reasoning because i feel it developed through the course of this discussion into the "ASAP" suggestion.

This change to the breeding formula should be made ASAP.

Post-recode lines will never be truly competitive with pre-recode lines due to the inability to breed down non-specialty stats. There is no incentive to breed multiple generations of horses because no subsequent generation will be any better at showing than the last. 

This impacts game play each and every day. It is FAR more important than additional add-ons to game play because it is a core element of the game that is functioning in such a way that way makes achieving showing-based goals impossible for anyone without pre-recode lines.

^^^^

This! I’d personally much prefer seeing work being done to fix aspects of the existing game rather than get shiny new features that also might come with their own set of bugs. I really do appreciate all of the work that goes into this game and I love that new features are being added. That being said, when aspects that are core to gameplay are lacking it makes it kind of difficult for me to appreciate all the hard work that goes into new additions.

I've commented on this frequently, but I emphatically agree with Kahzie 100%.

Things like foal art and the ability to grow treats are great, but I won't pause my breeding program if we don't get them.

I am currently pausing my breeding program, and will continue to do so, until non-specialty stats can be bred down.  It is essential to my gameplay.

I'm just gonna copy and paste what I said in the other post cause I think it's really important to understand the disadvantage new lines have.

While I am glad that this is on the list of things to look into, I'm kind of disappointed knowing that this is not a priority for the game. I do not want to sound ungrateful for the hard work being done for foal art, farming, bonuses, events, etc. I would love all of these, but I would like to see the change in the breeding formula sooner most of all. 

The way I see it is that this is a breeding sim about building up your horses so they reach the top, and that is almost impossible for post-recode horses when the pre-recode horses have that leg up already (when post-recode lines dont have that chance of catching up). 
I just do not see post-recode horses going anywhere the farther up they go in show levels. The higher up they go, the harder it is to win with the non-spec stats that is impossible to breed down (without breeding with a pre-recodes constantly)

I really do hope Abbey reconsiders, simply because new lines are at an unfair disadvantage.

I'm in agreement with what has been said. It is becoming increasingly frustrating that there are two distinct populations of horses.

How about as a compromise, I switch it so that only priority stats contribute towards grading of horses.  It would require no messing around with breeding (and therefore fewer possibilities of bugs) and would make a change to how the game works immediately with your current horses instead of having to wait 3-4 generations.

We could put this forward as a poll to get an idea of what the game thinks as a whole but just putting it in here first to throw the idea out.

That's an interesting idea, Abbey.  I'll have to mull it over, but my gut reaction is that I would prefer to have the challenge of breeding it down.  Also, I could see the people who have worked very hard before the recode to get those numbers low might find it extremely frustrating to lose that edge, and people who were excited to see their horses reach, say, Nationals, might be disappointed to have them demoted.  But that's just what comes to my mind right now, and I am very interested to see what others think.

I will have to agree with Confessor. Only counting specialty stats only seems to get rid of the challenge of getting your lines to the top. I'd rather wait several generations and go through the bugs so we can breed down those pesky non-spec stats. Non specialty stats are a pretty big deal as to whether or not you do well in shows and that is one of my favorite parts of the game, I like that not every horse can do well in shows based on that. 

Low non-spec stats = better show horse = better value
Modifying the show system instead kind of ruins that value members have worked so hard to achieve, and others players that hope to achieve.

People who have prepared for it will still have the edge though - their horses would be graded higher than others who have the same overall stats.

E.g. A horse with 100 stats in agility and 100 stats in intelligence, but 15 stats in all the others will be graded higher in Dressage than a horse with 70/75/33/33/34 even though they have the same overall stats.(Exact figures could be wrong, I'm pulling grading thresholds purely from memory)

It's also a quicker fix than modifying the breeding script which will take trial and error and may potentially screw up a couple of generations of horses while we work through bugs. It's also potentially easier for newer members to understand and get the hang of.

I like that idea for my high non spec stat horses, as I believe it will make them more competitive , but I think most people wouldn't want this. It goes against their goals, unless there's a small penalty for high non specialty stats.

But I think that would still make pre recode horses more competitive?

Last edited on 2018-02-04 at 15:20:05 by marigold sunshine

I'm with Confessor - I'd much rather have the challenge of breeding down stats. From a realism standpoint it makes more sense that selecting only for certain traits (ie specialty stats) results in a decrease in traits that aren't selected for. 

Altering the showing system would also totally void all the pre-recode work done by players to breed down non-speciality stats in their lines.
The issue isn't so much making post- and pre-recode lines immediately equal in value when it comes to showing, but rather allowing both lines able to reach the same goals. 

Making only specialty stats count in showing would also increase the use of haycubes, sugarcubes, and peppermints. that in itself isn't truly harmful, but it could potentially divide the already weak horse market (those who cube to gain as many stats as quickly as possible versus those who use regular treats). The proposal of altering the breeding formula would do the opposite; it would make currently-cubed horses more valuable because they can always be bred down.

For example, many of the best confo and stat mustangs have crazy high non-spec stats. I'd love to increase stats and confo of my horses by adding them to my lines, but i'm not willing to take the hit to non-spec stats. If i knew I could reduce those with time, I'd be much more likely to breed to those lines and therefore do my part to stimulate our stagnant horse market. 

RemRem also brings up a good point, that the way the current show system works gives the advantage to horses with lower non-speciality stats. I feel that is a GOOD thing, because it encourages trait-specific treat use (ie keeps the demand for all treats high rather than just the demand for cubes) and discipline specialization (ie not random breeding across disciplines) . 

I am more than willing to deal with some buggy generations if it means implementing a system where we can breed down stats. I would even be happy to contribute financially for the backend coding hassle this might cause, and I know at least one other player feels the same. 

I'm highly invested in this game financially, emotionally, and in terms of time spent on EV during the day (as if that wasn't obvious from my novel of a reply!), and will probably stick around regardless of the outcome, though I will admit that i'd be disappointed if this just result in a change in the showing system. However, I know that not all players feel the same way, and some might quit altogether. 

Last edited on 2018-02-04 at 17:35:27 by ᴋᴀʜᴢɪᴇ ɪ

If things are changed so that only specialty stats count towards a horse's grade, how is anyone supposed to breed more successful show horses (vs. just horses that are in higher showing grades.)

If this is how we decide to do things, every horse with 380 specialty stats is going to be exactly like every other horse with 380 specialty stats, except for training level, which is really not something that takes much strategy.  

With non-specialty stats factored into the grade, my horse with 380 specialty stats may end up competing in a different grade entirely from your horse with 380 specialty stats, either higher or lower, depending on how much care and effort you or I put into breeding and developing our horses.

It's the difference between the showing power of a horse having to do with the work put into it (the way it is now) or the showing power of a horse having merely to do with where it happens to fall at the moment within the range of its grade.

It's the difference between one horse having a serious competitive edge even when its at the bottom of its grade because it is the result of generations of masterful breeding, and every single horse in the game cycling from being bad at the bottom of its grade, to good at the top of its grade, with no one horse showing any particular aptitude for winning, no matter the care or lack thereof that was taken in that horse.

What we are asking for is the ability to continue to craft horses that excel, not to have all the playing fields leveled.  We want to be able to still breed these powerhouse horses because we love the challenge.

And creating a truly competitive show horse should be a challenge.  Otherwise, leader boards become meaningless.  Trophies become meaningless.  No challenge, no fun, no sense of accomplishment.

If it really does get changed to only specialty stats counting towards the horse's grade, that means the only way to win more shows is to try to gain as few stats as possible while your horse is near the top of its grade.  It means not giving your horse any treats during that time.  It means putting your horse in shows with less than five entries, so it doesn't gain stats even when it wins. I can see people flooding their horses' grades with extra shows so that they can keep show entry numbers down, which will mean a shortage of other shows in other grades.  It means not training (or at least not cashing in stat boost points.)  In short, it means holding a horse's progress back in hopes of making it hover in that upper grade range.  In other words, the best show horses be the ones that make the least progress.  That is not a change in dynamic I would like to see happen in this game.

Like Kahzie, I would be willing to put up with a few buggy generations if that's what it takes to adjust the stat inheritance ratios.

My greatest pleasure in this game has been showing, and before I started selling my stock, I was all over the hall of fame, and very proud of it.  I loved to see my horses progress in leaps and bounds.  But if changes are made so that the only way to increase your wins is to impede your horses' progress, I will almost certainly give up on showing.  There's no joy in that.

I appreciate your effort to find a short-term solution, but I really, really hope you don't do this.

And I do realize that my horses with low non-specialty stats will be graded higher than one with tons of non-specialty stats.  The thing is, I don't care as much about which grade my horse is in as how powerfully it competes in that grade.  I mean, yes, it's fun to see my horse progress through the grades, but I wouldn't sacrifice my horse's carefully developed showing power just to go up a grade.  But actually, with this change, it's not that my horses would gain any grades (and some will still lose a grade or two, but just that horses with higher non-specialty stats will lose more grades than mine.  Only horses with zero non-specialty stats at all would hold their ground perfectly.  And I don't really care about being graded higher than a horse with high non-specialty stats, because before they never would have beat any of my horses, and now they can if they are in the same grade, and have just slightly higher specialty stats.

^{I can understand the frustration behind not being able to breed stats down currently and I'm all for it in the future but I really don't think this should be top priority when there's already major updates on the way and Abbey is clearly very busy. I'd rather wait for there to be more time to deal with any bugged horses than to do it now and to wait a long time for any bug to be looked and causing frustration to a lot of players. I am not willing to sit through weeks/generations of bugged horses again myself unless there is a guarantee they will be looked at immediately. This aspect of the game is not game-breaking and more of an annoyance for a select few that play seriously, a lot of other players don't mind or notice this issue and are content to keep on going. You already have a stat goal of getting higher stats with each generation, non-speciality stats in showing isn't that huge of an issue as it is.} 

I'm with Maple on this, I too support this change happening but not immediately. It's not game breaking, but messing with it could lead to glitches which may be even worse. With all of the massive updates coming along, Abbey wouldn't have the time to properly look into those bugs as quickly and we could be left with an actual problem instead of a minor annoyance for some time. I'd rather wait for the bigger updates to come out and settle down (farms heyoo!) before messing with something that isn't all that bad at the moment.