Adding Colors and Markings to Breeds

^ This horse looks more to be shedding from a winter coat to a summer coat, my bay paint mare looks like this every spring to early summer as she sheds out

Photos of my mare taken yesterday
My paint mare 1
My paint mare 2

Compared to a late summer:
paint late summer

Last edited on 2016-05-11 at 05:24:25 by rhine.

Breed: Shetland Pony
Color: Mushroom
Marking: -
Proof it exists on purebred horses of that breed: (e.g. links to studies, to a widely known registry which states it's accepted, etc.)
Is it disputed by a reputable source?
It hasn't been really admitted yet, but since Shetland Ponies don't carry silver, any silver like horses where caused by the mushroom gene
Clicky for all genes
another link about mushroom
some pictures:

Just something I wanted to point out for those who are suggesting colours like brown, roan, and essentially anything that can be phenotypically ambiguous: it's not uncommon for horses to have their colour name registered as something which does not match their genotype, so if you're trying to provide proof of a particular gene in a breed it's not enough to show pictures of horses which look like they carry a trait, or have their colour/pattern registered under a particular name, if there could be other explanations. For example, dark bays and sooty bays are often labelled brown, some sabinos or varnish roans can be labelled roan, some minimal sabinos and W20s get called splash, some cream dilutes are called dun, a huge range of ambiguous white markings get called sabino, etc. And sometimes non-standard names can be used for common colours/patterns, like piebald or skewbald for tobiano, blagdon for sabino, etc.

If you want to provide definitive proof of a gene, look for things like registries which state certain genes (not phenotypes) are present in a breed, or registered horses (i.e. officially confirmed purebloods) with genetic tests that are positive for that gene, or scientific studies that carry out genetic tests on certain breeds. Remember when posting individual horses as proof that you're tying to prove two things: firstly that the horse is a pureblood member of that breed, and second that it has the genetic trait you're suggesting. Even registries are often guilty of using phenotype names to refer to things which are not genetically that, so be careful. Brown is a common one for this.

Also, awesome though it would be, it appears we won't be getting new genes that aren't already in the game, like pearl, mushroom, brindle, W20, ermine spots. At least not in the foreseeable future. This thread is just to find out what extra art is needed, it's not looking for ways to completely revamp the site's genetics. Maybe a separate suggestion thread would be appropriate if you think a new gene should be added to the game?

Last edited on 2016-05-13 at 07:03:45 by UlyssesBlue (spare)

Breed: Andalusian
Color: Sooty (more of a modifier)
Marking: Sabino
Proof: This lovely lady has both and is registered so I guess that is proof it is accepted

Registered Sabino stallion

I am excited for pearl dilutions!!

@Amarathine, I can't say for certain, but I think those two sabino examples may be too ambiguous to constitute proof. Although they are both labelled as sabino, neither has been genetically tested for it, and their markings would also be very typical of W20, so you can't say for certain they are sabino. The first one definitely looks like a sooty though.

I'd love to see W20 added to the game, but unfortunately I don't think we're getting any new genes. :P

@Windspun, a little error you should be aware of: your 4th 'clydesdale' image is actually a pure registered gypsy vanner called Sir Keith. He's genetically tested to be smoky silver black (Ee Zn Crcr).

Last edited on 2016-05-13 at 08:05:07 by UlyssesBlue (spare)

Breed: Gypsy Vanner
Color: Silver?
Marking: Silver?

Source:
The Gypsy Horse Association

@Ulysses blue oops, sorry I can't read properly, I would love to have mushroom though >.

Just some brief info on W20, since it's easy to confuse with sabino and splashed white. I hope this helps with identifying suitable horses when trying to prove certain genes are present in certain breeds.

W20 is an extremely common white marking gene found on the KIT locus. A genetic test for it has recently been developed, and it is confirmed in a huge number of breeds, including Appaloosas, Clydesdales, Gypsy Vanners, Morgans, Quarter Horses, Paint Horses, Thoroughbreds, Welsh Ponies, several unspecified warmblood breeds, and many others. It consistently causes white socks with a blaze, and occasionally also belly spots, so is pretty subtle as white markings go. It never causes blue eyes, so can be distinguished from minimal splashed white by that at least.

This is what it typically looks like when it's homozygous (W20W20): Note the small belly spot, and the socks on all four feet.



When heterogeneous (W20n), at a minimum the back legs have socks and there will be a blaze. There's usually no belly spots. Socks on the front feet can occur, but are not guaranteed, unlike the homozygous case.



All the horses shown here have been genetically verified to have the stated genotype.

W20 is essentially the "normal white marking" gene for socks and blazes. Technically we already have it here in the form of leg and face markings, there just isn't any heritability (lol that's not even a word apparently, but you get the idea) in the game...

I can't wait until we eventually isolate the actual genes responsible for other normal white markings so we can put an end to the "minimally expressed sabino" nonsense.

I'm of the mind that there has to be SOMETHING in the genotype responsible for normal white markings and how they're inherited (sometime's they seem to be passed down to direct children, other times they seem to skip generations). Marking placement and even shape and size seem to run in families of horses, so it can't just be a coincidence.

Carson City
- La Ville Rouge (Carson City daughter)
--- Barbaro (Rouge son)
--- Margano (Rouge son)
--- Nicanor (Rouge son)
--- Pennmarydel (Rouge son)

- State City (Carson City son/skipped gen)
--- Reno (State son)
Out of Reno's 90 brothers and sisters, there was only one with a photo, and it didn't even show his face *sigh*.

megansparrow

Mushroom is only on a few horse breeds, it's pretty common to see mostly on Shetland ponies though, so I do vote for that one. Despite not knowing how the mushroom actually works, it still is lovely and I would love to see it. XD

Last edited on 2016-05-22 at 22:30:52 by Western Outback Stables

Breed: all breeds with the relevant dilutes
Colour: double cream champagne dilutes and double cream champagne dun dilutes

Unless I've missed it we don't appear to have separate colour names or art for horses with champagne and two copies of the cream allele. Currently they seem to all have the same art and colour name as champagne + single cream, even though their genes are different, and they look too dark.

We therefore need art for CrCr Ch- and CrCr Ch- D- on each of the four base colours for any breed with all these genes. Suitable colour names for the former would be cremello champagne, perlino champagne, moreno champagne and smoky cream champagne. The phenotype is off-white, with sometimes a hint of colour in the ears or tail, and pinker than normal skin with no noticeable freckling. The dun variants have a dorsal stripe and leg barring a few shades darker than the main coat. Source

Alternatively, if we considered all these colours to be so pale as to be indistinguishable, we could lump them all under the one name with a single artwork. My suggestion for names are either Ivory or Platinum (and Ivory Dun or Platinum Dun).

Breed: all breeds with sooty
Colour: extensive sooty

My suggestion is to split sooty up into moderate and extensive levels of sootiness, where genetically STYsty = moderate and STYSTY = extensive sooty.

Moderate sooty would be the existing dappled version based around the topline of the horse, so would use the existing art. Extensive sooty would spread across most of the body, would be relatively uniform, and possibly without dapples. The different levels of sootiness could be used to effectively get different shades of things like chestnut, bay, buckskin, etc.

This is what uniform sooty looks like compared to standard 'topline' sooty. Both these horses are buckskin.



Evidence for:
This genetic study (full text in german) found that the darker shades of chestnut and bay followed a recessive mode of inheritance, and they propose a 'dark gene' to explain it. I would argue this would be in agreement with the idea that STYSTY = darkest shade, STYsty = moderate shade or topline only, stysty = normal.

Evidence against:
It has also been proposed that sooty is polygenic, in which case it would be explained with STY1 = topline version of sooty, STY2 = uniform sooty over entire coat, etc. Although this is also a good explanation, if adding in new genes is out of the question then I suggest going with the previous explanation above, just for simplicity.

You're right in that something polygenic would explain the variety best. I think it may even act differently on bay vs chestnuts bases. At least that may explain why I can't find any chestnuts with the topline-type of sooty, but uniformly darkened chestnuts or palominos are easy to find.

I'll leave my suggestion as is for a simplified version which uses the existing genes in game, but a polygenic solution would definitely be better.

By the way, currently in the game we already have liver chestnut, which is chestnut + sooty. The phenotype is the topline type of sooty on normal chestnut though. ₥. mabel. (#450426)

Last edited on 2016-05-27 at 09:32:10 by UlyssesBlue (spare)